Hello,
I want to add a synapse as a point process with an NMDA receptors in which
Ca2+ current is expressed by ica (nA).
But I also want to use a distributed process for a voltage-gated Ca2+ conductance
in which Ca2+ current is expressed by ica (mA/cm2), simultaneously.
Is it possible?
Using Ca2+ currents in point and distributed processes
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Re: Using Ca2+ currents in point and distributed processes
Yes. Have you read chapters 5 and 6 of The NEURON Book? Or at least
Hines, M.L. and Carnevale, N.T. The NEURON simulation environment. Neural Computation 9:1179-1209, 1997
(available from http://www.neuron.yale.edu/neuron/nrnpubs).
Hines, M.L. and Carnevale, N.T. The NEURON simulation environment. Neural Computation 9:1179-1209, 1997
(available from http://www.neuron.yale.edu/neuron/nrnpubs).
Re: Using Ca2+ currents in point and distributed processes
Sorry.
I should explain my problem clearly.
I would like to model a dynamics of calcium concentration.
So, I use a NMODL file for dynamics of Ca2+ concentration in which
'USEION ca READ ica, cai WRITE cai'
is inserted.
Similary, 'USEION ca READ cai WRITE ica' and 'USEION ca READ eca WRITE ica' are used
in the files for NMDA synapse and voltage-gated Ca2+ channel, respectively.
Because the unit of ica in the file for Ca2+ dynamics is mA/cm2 and the same as the one in the file for voltage-gated Ca2+ channel,
simultaneous usage of the mechanis for Ca2+ dynamics and voltage-gated Ca2+ channel work all right.
However, if I add the mechanism for NMDA synapse in which the unit of ica is nA and differs from the ones in the other mechanisms,
dose it work?
I should explain my problem clearly.
I would like to model a dynamics of calcium concentration.
So, I use a NMODL file for dynamics of Ca2+ concentration in which
'USEION ca READ ica, cai WRITE cai'
is inserted.
Similary, 'USEION ca READ cai WRITE ica' and 'USEION ca READ eca WRITE ica' are used
in the files for NMDA synapse and voltage-gated Ca2+ channel, respectively.
Because the unit of ica in the file for Ca2+ dynamics is mA/cm2 and the same as the one in the file for voltage-gated Ca2+ channel,
simultaneous usage of the mechanis for Ca2+ dynamics and voltage-gated Ca2+ channel work all right.
However, if I add the mechanism for NMDA synapse in which the unit of ica is nA and differs from the ones in the other mechanisms,
dose it work?
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Re: Using Ca2+ currents in point and distributed processes
Yes. NEURON has distributed (density) mechanisms and point mechanisms ("point processes") precisely for the purpose of enabling the construction of models that may contain representations of any combination of distributed and localized transmembrane currents and ion fluxes. Currents generated by density mechanisms are specified in units of mA/cm2, and currents generated by point mechanisms are specified in units of nA.
Re: Using Ca2+ currents in point and distributed processes
hi,
I have a similar problem.
I have a chloride leak current expressed in mA/cm2 and an accumulation mechanisms.
I had a gabaa synapse point process which writes a ligand-gated chloride current in nA. I would like to counterbalance with the cl pump the activity of the leak and cl current generated by gabaa.
Is my accumulation mechanisms considering the icl generated by all the density and point process mechanism?
When I look at the cl current generated by the gabaa, is it automatically converted by neuron in mA/cm2 or I need to convert it from nA?
I did this modification to the gaba point process:
is it ok?
I have a similar problem.
I have a chloride leak current expressed in mA/cm2 and an accumulation mechanisms.
I had a gabaa synapse point process which writes a ligand-gated chloride current in nA. I would like to counterbalance with the cl pump the activity of the leak and cl current generated by gabaa.
Is my accumulation mechanisms considering the icl generated by all the density and point process mechanism?
When I look at the cl current generated by the gabaa, is it automatically converted by neuron in mA/cm2 or I need to convert it from nA?
I did this modification to the gaba point process:
Code: Select all
TITLE is :Inhibitory synapse in the pyramidal cell
NEURON {
POINT_PROCESS is
RANGE tau1, tau2, icl,i, g
USEION cl READ ecl WRITE icl VALENCE -1
POINTER e
}
UNITS{
PI = (pi) (1)
}
PARAMETER {
tau1 = 2 (ms)
tau2 = 6 (ms)
}
ASSIGNED {
v (mV)
e (mV)
ecl (mV)
i (nA)
icl (mA/cm2)
g (microsiemens)
factor
}
STATE {
A (microsiemens)
B (microsiemens)
}
INITIAL {
LOCAL tp
if (tau1/tau2 > .9999) {
tau1 = .9999*tau2
}
A = 0
B = 0
tp = (tau1*tau2)/(tau2 - tau1) * log(tau2/tau1)
factor = -exp(-tp/tau1) + exp(-tp/tau2)
factor = 1/factor
}
BREAKPOINT {
SOLVE state METHOD cnexp
g = B - A
i= g*(v - e)
icl = i*0.000001/(PI*diam*diam)
}
DERIVATIVE state {
A' = -A/tau1
B' = -B/tau2
}
NET_RECEIVE(weight (microsiemens)) {
A = A + weight*factor
B = B + weight*factor
}
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Re: Using Ca2+ currents in point and distributed processes
An accumulation mechanism for what? Chloride?I have a chloride leak current expressed in mA/cm2 and an accumulation mechanisms.
Just guessing here--your accumulation mechanism is a chloride accumulation mechanism, and it includes a chloride pump?I had a gabaa synapse point process which writes a ligand-gated chloride current in nA. I would like to counterbalance with the cl pump
Have you checked this mod file with modlunit? This is a point process, so the units of the current it WRITEs must be nA. There is absolutely no need to do this calculationIs my accumulation mechanisms considering the icl generated by all the density and point process mechanism . . .
When I look at the cl current generated by the gabaa, is it automatically converted by neuron in mA/cm2 or I need to convert it from nA? . . .
I did this modification to the gaba point process . . . is it ok?
icl = i*0.000001/(PI*diam*diam)
NEURON will take care of that for you--it will automatically add up all of chloride currents produced by density mechanisms and point processes, and it takes surface area into account. So just declare icl to be in nA and replace
icl = i*0.000001/(PI*diam*diam)
with
icl = i
and your synaptic mechanism will be OK as far as chloride current is concerned.
But what's this e variable that is a POINTER? Why bother to READ ecl but then ignore ecl?
Re: Using Ca2+ currents in point and distributed processes
Dear Ted,
Thanks.
Yes I have a Cl accumulation mechanism and a simple pump mechanism which writes the current passing through the Cl pump icl_pump=const*(cli-cli0).
Do you mean that the icl I am using in the accumulation mechanism takes into account the icl of the point process because neuron changes automatically the units from nA to mA/cm2?
How can I save and plot the icl written by the point process in mA/cm2 ?
I mean, how can I check this?
At the moment I am calculating the area under the currents curves. I need to check that the area under the Cl pump current is equal to the sum of the area under the leak and ligand-gated chloride current. I got a discrepancy in this values.
I modified the synaptic mechanism...I eliminate the READ ecl, and I am not defining anymore the units of icl as mA/cm2:
Thanks.
Yes I have a Cl accumulation mechanism and a simple pump mechanism which writes the current passing through the Cl pump icl_pump=const*(cli-cli0).
Do you mean that the icl I am using in the accumulation mechanism takes into account the icl of the point process because neuron changes automatically the units from nA to mA/cm2?
How can I save and plot the icl written by the point process in mA/cm2 ?
I mean, how can I check this?
At the moment I am calculating the area under the currents curves. I need to check that the area under the Cl pump current is equal to the sum of the area under the leak and ligand-gated chloride current. I got a discrepancy in this values.
I modified the synaptic mechanism...I eliminate the READ ecl, and I am not defining anymore the units of icl as mA/cm2:
Code: Select all
NEURON {
POINT_PROCESS is
RANGE tau1, tau2, g,icl
USEION cl WRITE icl VALENCE -1
POINTER e
}
PARAMETER {
tau1 = 2 (ms)
tau2 = 6 (ms)
}
ASSIGNED {
v (mV)
e (mV)
ecl (mV)
icl (nanoamp)
g (microsiemens)
factor
}
STATE {
A (microsiemens)
B (microsiemens)
}
INITIAL {
LOCAL tp
if (tau1/tau2 > .9999) {
tau1 = .9999*tau2
}
A = 0
B = 0
tp = (tau1*tau2)/(tau2 - tau1) * log(tau2/tau1)
factor = -exp(-tp/tau1) + exp(-tp/tau2)
factor = 1/factor
}
BREAKPOINT {
SOLVE state METHOD cnexp
g = B - A
icl= g*(v - e)
}
DERIVATIVE state {
A' = -A/tau1
B' = -B/tau2
}
NET_RECEIVE(weight (microsiemens)) {
A = A + weight*factor
B = B + weight*factor
}